That wouldn’t, that wouldn’t last for too long so, we use both of them and as a third party somewhat neutral person I feel like it’s the right tool for the right job. That’s what I believe. Now, I think if you ask anyone else in here they’d say they want to see you two fight to the death, so What do you two make of this competition? So the question is what do we think about the competition? That’s correct I think there’s two ways to answer the question You know I do think that we run into each other, and that we, you know, compete sometimes But I think you summarized it well At least that’s my feeling. Like, on the low end if you build smaller sites like you know I’m sure you bump into your WordPress quite a bit, but on the high end you see them less. At least from where Acquia, my company is sitting. We do a lot of work in the enterprise We don’t usually run into WordPress that much I think there’s a long tail of smaller Drupal companies that I’m sure are like in the WordPress versus a Drupal camp a lot more Dries was just going on saying how, I don’t know if you could hear him or not but he doesn’t bump into WordPress a lot on the enterprise level, but on a smaller scale level it is definitely there, so You know if one one up one up.. is this working? Or we can start shouting There’s just so much awesomeness All right, so but I don’t know at the same time We’re also sort of on the same side of things right, we’re fighting the same fight proprietor. I don’t – right. I don’t feel like we’re competing in the traditional sense of competing, to be honest, so I guess where we probably run into each other more now is that Traditionally, if you go back five years Drupal was a very powerful tool that has been becoming easier to use. WordPress is an extremely easy to use tool that’s becoming a lot more powerful I think that today there’s not anything you could do in one platform that you couldn’t do in the other. I haven’t seen a user facing feature or a site that couldn’t be built in either of the systems If the technology works, oh there we go. If the technology works your team knows, and also you know, That are you serving to develop or something that lots of journalists are going to need to use. Lots of end users, things like that Okay, so the question the question was it seems to me, okay Being a designer developer working in that world that designers seemed to fall in love with WordPress more easily and fastly It feels like developers seem to fall more in love with Drupal faster and easier I’m curious, Matt, first if that was a conscious decision on your part From the early early beginning you had a beautiful back-end theme And you kept that going. It took until Drupal 7 to get, you know, some kind of momentum going for that, for you Dries So if you could touch a little bit on designers and Dries, you on developers. Sure, it wasn’t anything we ever specifically targeted, although certainly when starting WordPress I had sort of a few dream users- like a few folks, like a Mark Pilgrim or Jeffrey Zelman that was like if someday we can make the software good enough and they all run it now, which is kind of cool. Every single one of that original list is now on WordPress. I think I actually went here, University of Houston, and studied political science. Go Coogs! But just for two years, I dropped out Which is kind of funny, because I’m in their new campaign like “Cougar Pride” or something, which I find hilarious in and of itself but yeah I always thought of things as a means to an end, so I learned a ton about code and programming and back-end systems and everything like that mainly because it had sort of a vision for a user experience that we want to realize and the easiest way to do it was to just do it ourselves and so it was kind of able to grow up with the system, and so we’ve made certain design choices from a technical point of view that, to me, were more intuitive. I think that Developer APIs have a user interface just like the interface does So for example, instead of doing a – there was a big pressure, two big pressures early on in WordPress’s life You’ll probably remember this because you’re also old school. I love that. Everyone wanted us to adopt a templating system, particularly Smarty because movable-type had a templating system. Remember Smarty? Where are those guys now? And two- they wanted us to go sort of a strict object-oriented model so you could extend everything WordPress does, like through classes, essentially, and in sort of looking at how, what we were doing, which actually isn’t that complex, like, we take text, we put in a database, spit it back out add some glorified widgets around that but it seemed like a simpler approach or even better so we took sort of an action-oriented plugin approach where we have actions and filters that can modify any part of the system and we’ve seen that with over 15,000 plugins, I think approaching 20,000 now, people have done everything you can possibly imagine But it wasn’t a strict object-oriented approach That perhaps is more correct from a computer science point of view, but I think is a lot harder to use for people just getting started and So we just sort of take a pragmatic approach, whatever works best for the given problem. Okay So, I can tell you my side of the story, which is, I mean there’s a couple of things here One- when I started drupal I was in college to get a computer science degree So I was almost an engineer when I started, so I think I applied a lot of engineering best practices to Drupal, and as a typical engineer I wasn’t too concerned about, you know, the user experience and all of these other things, and I was very very obsessed about the architecture, and you know, applying the right, and having the right APIs and and all of these things, and so when I finally released Drupal as open source, I think it naturally attracted an audience of developers, because obviously that’s the only person that could use it. And I think that that’s basically what happened, like the initial community was developer community And it started to expand to more and more developers And as we expanded to more and more developers, I guess that emphasis on, you know, sort of architecture and and all of these other things just was reinforced. And so we’ve tried to change that, and we’re actively still trying to change that And I think it’s slowly starting to work, but I think it’s very much historical, if you will, so I was actually one of those developers. I looked up my drupal.org profile today, and it was user ID 5665 And I’ve been a member for eight years in one week So just past the anniversary. Another thing, I found interesting on the profile was, you know how you have the interest and you can click the interest to see what they were? I put in these interests, who knows how long ago But I’m one of 71 people who are interested in typography on drupal.org, but I am the only person who lists simplicity as an interest So, I vaguely remember being, and I don’t know if it’s still there a but wasn’t at some point, didn’t you give like a credit to Drupal? On wordpress.com? It’s still there It’s still there, really? You had a bit of code in the early versions of WordPress. I was looking through our source and I saw Cribbed from Dries at Drupal Yeah, it was a ping bit chorus. Remember the weblogs.com ping stuff, so I think we just copy and pasted that function We’re both PHP and GPL. So you know, things can- in theory, you could copy and paste anything between them and and it was in there for a long time, years Now it’s your turn to get some code in Drupal. I have an account So, let’s have a little bit more fun. You guys are both you know, in college, nerds, geeks programming away and became super successful, very attractive men who went on to do well That being said, Dries, I’m gonna start with you. What do you wish you had done that Matt did? Wow, let’s stick with technical stuff but I think, I think I think Matt did a lot of things right You know, he started his company sooner than I did, which I think was a smart thing to do I think wordpress.com is a tremendous asset to get more people involved with WordPress And so I think that was a very smart thing to do Its focus on usability and design I think is is key, and I think in today’s world it’s even more obvious that that was a very important thing to do early on, and so in a way we’re paying the penalty of not doing that early on. So I think these two elements are probably, you know, two things I would do sooner. I thought I could skip that one. The thing when I look at the the Drupal community The thing I like, I’m probably more envious, most envious of is how the software runs the community itself. So like, the bug tracker’s Drupal, the forms are Drupal, the issues are Drupal ,everything’s Drupal And I think that’s super cool, and also just the third-party developer community. I would say even though WordPress has more web sites, we have fewer of the large consulting firms based around it. We sort of have three or four of the big ones that can take, you know, the big you know hundreds of thousands or million dollar projects where you guys seem to have like twenty. Like every place I go I meet like some other, like a phase three or like, something like that, and like wow it’s like a 60 person company just doing Drupal consulting. Capgemini, you know all these crazy things and That’s something I think that there’s a real dearth of in the wordpress communities. There’s a huge demand but the projects tend to be building the same site for whatever reason tends to cost less in WordPress. So it just supports a smaller ecosystem Yeah, I think that’s one of the major success factors for WordPress is how easy it is to launch quote-on-quote out-Of-the-box. Drupal Garden started, what, last year? last year, and wordpress.com in some version of it has been a long a little bit longer, kind of like you said, now Let’s talk a little bit about open source You both have that common ground, you both have that common footing, and leaving evil proprietary softwares out of this, how do you, how do you both benefit from the other person existing? Is the question how do I benefit from Matt existing, or proprietary vendors existing? I think if if WordPress wins, Drupal wins, because that means open source wins, basically. I think competition is always good. I mean, it pushes you to be better Every time Joomla or Drupal or CQ5 or any of these guys does something amazing, the bar has been raised, and I think that’s what’s been really interesting from our point of view is that, because WordPress is used in so many places we kind of end up competing with a lot of different people in a lot of different spots. So there’s two other open source Php my sequel GPL content management systems that are really good. There’s, you know, for the social blogging site with wordpress.com there’s tumblr and blogger and you know all these other folks, or Twitter and Facebook depending on how you you categorize them on the CMS side. We got Squarespace and Acquia Gardens, Drupal Gardens, I mean, almost at every single level there’s a strong competition, and it just forces us to be better which I think is good for you guys. So let’s, you mentioned raising the bar higher You keep talking, I asked you directly between yourselves But let’s talk about proprietary software then. Do you feel like they can help raise that bar for you guys? When you have people dedicated being paid a lot of money to do something and create something great, or their job depends on it, do you feel like they can also raise the bar for you guys? Mm, sometimes Proprietary software often has short term advantages, in that you can, whoever is directing it can tell people what to do, but I think over the long term open source dominates every single area it enters. That’s taken a very long time with desktops. It took a very short time with content management software. It was just five or six years ago when, you know, Movable-type was the dominant system out there. Blogger, all these other things that we don’t even talk about anymore. That’s happened very quickly, and I think that people being told what to do or working for money are never gonna match people working for passion and a community, and the ecosystem benefits that would spring up around this. And, you just see that story playing out again and again and again. And, I mean, it’s not a bad thing to write your own Cms. I mean, we both did it. But um, I think that open source is, is not just the future of technology and content management, it’s the future of society and it’s something that everyone should be embracing or thinking about embracing, regardless of your business model or anything else. You know, I agree with that. You know, I firmly believe- every cell in my body believes- that open source is the way forward especially when it comes to websites, but you know, also beyond just websites. At the same time, to come back to your question, I do think we can learn from, you know, proprietary competitors. I mean, they’re doing a lot of things right, like you know, open source is great, but there’s also things which we don’t always do well and you know, things like maybe marketing and promotion. And, you know, I’m not saying we should do you know, like evil bad marketing and promotion but, you know, that’s something that we often can learn from, right, because we don’t necessarily sell ourselves the way that we could, so I think that’s kind of the areas where we can learn from them. You guys do a ton of that now. We do a lot of marketing How many sales people, about? We’re about, we’re a total of 160 people and we have about 40 salespeople, and about, I would say 15 marketing people Wow, that’s awesome. And what about the size of your company? Automatic is 93, and I guess we have one-and-a-half sales people Yeah, we’re very much technology and consumer internet focused We have a vip group, which is probably where we end up running into each other. We have a group that works with the highest end sights, and CNN, New York Times, Fox News, Wall Street Journal- basically all the media companies and then, you know, some fortune 500s and stuff like that and And they look a little more like a traditional enterprise company, that little block, but the vast majority of the company is either a support, which is 20 people, which is the largest team, for operations or overhead, depending on how you call it, and then everyone else is product focused Including me. You’re not the sales guy? No Okay I’m terrible, I always tell them what they’re doing wrong. Like when I go into these enterprise things, and they’re like “we want a seven stage workflow for our blog”, I’m like no you don’t. That is dumb That’s why Twitter gets the story 15 minutes before you do I mean, you don’t need all those levels of Enterprise crap, like it’s terrible and so I’m really bad at that. Dries, you mentioned that every cell in your body believes in open source, so taking a step back from the content management systems, in particular, a lot of people including probably some people in this room, if I were to say open source they would categorize it as free. How do you respond to that? Well yeah, I mean open source is a license.
As a license, you know, it means you can use a software without having to pay so it’s free, so usually it means, well it means open source wins on price, right, but I think more importantly- and I talked about this in my keynote yesterday the other elements of the open source license essentially encourage collaboration. Collaboration leads to community, and community leads to innovation, which is reflected in the fact that we have, you know, 10,000 modules or 15,000 Plugins or whatever, and because of that, we’re actually winning because we are the better technology. The innovation coming from our communities is what makes all the difference so it’s kind of cute that we’ve been on price, but the real deal is that we win because we’re better, so And modest Well if you think about it, if you’re like a young kid passionate about this stuff That’s probably someone here in this room, like you’re not gonna go to Adobe and work on CQ5, like that’s not at the top of your list. You’re gonna get involved with an open source project, contributing, hacking on it And so you’re gonna get a job from that.